Following on from the thread at User_talk:Theknightwho#Romanization_of_炎（ほのお）.

I recently stumbled across the paper "Early compound accent in Japanese Tōkyō-type dialects: An unexpected finding", available here at Academia.edu: https://www.academia.edu/43116941/Early_compound_accent_in_Japanese_T%C5%8Dky%C5%8D_type_dialects_An_unexpected_finding?email_work_card=view-paper&li=0

Footnote 4 on the second page states:

Different dialects may mark either syllables or moræ for accent; the distinction isn’t relevant for our discussion, so we’ll speak abstractly of accented ‘positions’. For the Tōkyō-based standard, the 2nd mora of a syllable is never accented, which means that accent lies at the syllabic level.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but doesn't とおかった exhibit exactly that (where the second mora of a single syllable is accented)? See also the OJAD entry for とおい. Maybe the とおかった accent pattern shown there is intended to be not for the Tōkyō-based standard language?

Also pinging @Urszag, @Theknightwho. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

That generalization is only accurate for syllables with two moras. Syllables with three or more moras are often implicitly ignored when stating this restriction on accent placement, since they're not commonly seen, and their analysis seems a bit controversial. I cited some discussion about this at w:Japanese_phonology#Superheavy_syllables.--Urszag (talk) 00:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr Whoops, I replied too quickly and missed the actual example you were talking about. As far as とおかった goes, it is assumed the first syllable of [tooꜜkatta] is [to]: [to.o.ꜜkat.ta], four syllables. It's a bit circular in this case, but the assumption that this accent pattern is impossible for a single long vowel helps explain some other pitch accent patterns.--Urszag (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello @Eirikr I am not competent on a syllabic analysis of Japanese pitch accent. The two pronunciation dictionaries I have (and, I believe are the most widespread here in Japan and are considered as authoritative) are the one published by the NHK (I have access to the second-to-last version) and the Shinmeikai Nihongo Akusento Jiten (2nd ed.). In this context, Japanese pronunciation is always described using moras (Ja: 拍 or モーラ), not syllables (音節). Personally I do understand the concept of syllable, but I don't know how to use it for describing the pitch accent system. Thereofore everthing following refers to moras.

I can defititely confirm that there is a huge collection of words with accent on the second mora. It is a case of the nakadakagata patterns. トオカッタ is one of them, but another example is the verb 刺さる. Maidodo (talk) 02:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)Reply